Iraq

[Tyr_7BE]

[quote author=Schotty link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=0#61782 date=1047415292]

But in the end, I dont care who takes care of the job, as long as SH is out of power. The world wants to pussyfoot around the real problem except for 20 or so nations. Well, SH didnt ask UN for permission to be a bully prick, and I see no reason to continue asking the more and more irrelavent UN for "permission" to make sure our ass is safe.

[/quote]

SH poses NO threat to the US. None. Sure, he could have dealings with terrorist groups, but the same can be said of virtually half the world that has something against the US and the West in general. But in the event that he does develop WMD, he has no conceivable way of delivering the payload to American soil. Surrounding countries, perhaps, and that may be cause for concern, but certainly not the degree of concern that's been shown thus far on the part of Bush. The safety of Americans has precious little to do with Iraq. In fact, SH's regime has precious little to do with Iraq. Now if this were a simple matter of wanting to end his regime, why risk full-out war? Especially with the international community feeling the way they do! Most countries are opposed to military action. By going ahead with this invasion (speaking of bullying...), the US has crippled its diplomatic ties with some of its strongest allies for years to come. There must be something in Iraq that the US wants, and wants so badly that it supercedes the entire notion of diplomacy. Oil? Proximity to other nations of concern? Strategic position? Who can say, save Bush? What I do know is that a single well-placed bullet from some special agent's gun would end SH's reign just as sure as an invasion (don't look at me like that sort of thing doesn't happen). Only difference is that route wouldn't have this speculative payoff I discussed earlier.

[pwrhouse]

[quote author=Tyr_7BE link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=30#61789 date=1047420009]
What I do know is that a single well-placed bullet from some special agent's gun would end SH's reign just as sure as an invasion (don't look at me like that sort of thing doesn't happen). Only difference is that route wouldn't have this speculative payoff I discussed earlier.
[/quote]
They have discussed assassination but the problem is that Saddam goes through great lengths to protect himself against this. 6 cars leave his palace at the same time in different directions all with look-a-likes in them.

I am sure that if assassination was a viable option they would have no problem going for it, after all they have offer to let him go into exile.

[pwrhouse]

Just an observation here, nothing meant by it or anything, but you can really tell who is from the US and who is from another country in a discussion like this.

[pwrhouse]

[quote author=trickster link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=0#61744 date=1047388947]
I am not debating wether or not Iraq has WMD or not, or wether they would use them. Iam saying that there are many other countries which are a bigger threat; North Korea comes to mind, and reading todays news, Iran. These nations have higher firepower. North Korea does not control oil, however, which makes it a less atractive target.
Invading Iraq won't stop them from killing their own people. So the "noble liberation" argument is out of the way. (We can see that in Afghanistan, after the war, they are still killing each other. There has been no rebuilding, either..)
The threat argument is valid up to a certain point. Iraq is a threat. However, there are bigger threats. Why go after it, instead of the bigger threats? Iraq probably has terrorists ties. So does about half of the allies of the US.

In the end, it comes to this: Does Iraq poses a threat big enough to warrant war, and all its consequences? I think not.

Does winning over Iraq give other benefits to the US besides taking out WMD? I think so.

Is this the reason for the war, more than any threat Iraq might present? I think so.

Does Bush has a personal vendetta against Saddam? I think so.

Have we finished rebuilding Afghanistan, and evaluating other threats, and dedicated enough effort to fight terror? No.

Why go to war with another country when we already have so many many many loose ends?
[/quote]
Some of the reasons for the different handling of the two situations are found here:http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/....tm/index.html

[trickster]

[quote author=pwrhouse link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=30#61793 date=1047421008]
Just an observation here, nothing meant by it or anything, but you can really tell who is from the US and who is from another country in a discussion like this.
[/quote]
Please enlighten us then. Pray tell us who, in this conversation, you think is from the US and who is from elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but that comment only reminds me of how half of the american population thinks that is antiamerican and antipatriotic not to support invading and killing when you don't consider the reasons to be fair.

[trickster]

Are the Beastie Boys americans? I seem to recall they are...

I was happily surprised when I was driving home today, and they played the new Beastie Boys' song. You can download it for free off their website, and see their statement.

http://beastieboys.com
http://www.beastieboys.com/song_lyrics.html
http://bitpimps.com/happy_times/Beas...Gone%20Mad.mp3

It has some other interesting links too.

[Tyr_7BE]

[quote author=trickster link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=30#61797 date=1047423926]
Are the Beastie Boys americans? I seem to recall they are...

I was happily surprised when I was driving home today, and they played the new Beastie Boys' song. You can download it for free off their website, and see their statement.

http://beastieboys.com
http://www.beastieboys.com/song_lyrics.html
http://bitpimps.com/happy_times/Beas...Gone%20Mad.mp3

It has some other interesting links too.
[/quote]

Well put, IMO.

[Schotty]

[quote author=pwrhouse link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=30#61793 date=1047421008]
Just an observation here, nothing meant by it or anything, but you can really tell who is from the US and who is from another country in a discussion like this.
[/quote]

Hahaha, actually you are wrong. I know where most people are from (time spent/wasted around here). It is just we have an assload of poeple here taht are not very conservative or informed on the details that the news media doesnt say. Youd be suprised how many americans there really are.

But to add to the previous comments you made : Right on.

Tyr : glad to hear a sane respons from soemone who disagrees... remember that debackle a few months back .... Anyhooo .

Disagree. The fat bastard is paying people to kill americans. That constitiutes a threat. Just because the majority are americans abroad means shit. They are still Red, White, and friggin Blue on the inside. Anyone who says that my kin are targets is an enemy of mine. Especailly when hits are put out.


Crap almost forgot, one other thing ::

If the US only was in it for oil then why -

A) Do we make a strong alliance with the #1 Enemy out there, Israel ?
B) Didnt take any from Kuwait or Iraq when there?
C) Embargo the largest oil producing land there, Iran ?

We get more oil elsewhere than the ME. Dont tell me that I was the only one who felt the Venezuelan crisis? Gas went up alot around here.

[trickster]

[quote author=Schotty link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=30#61802 date=1047428575]
[quote author=pwrhouse link=board=14;threadid=6554;start=30#61793 date=1047421008]
Just an observation here, nothing meant by it or anything, but you can really tell who is from the US and who is from another country in a discussion like this.
[/quote]

Hahaha, actually you are wrong. I know where most people are from (time spent/wasted around here). It is just we have an assload of poeple here taht are not very conservative or informed on the details that the news media doesnt say. Youd be suprised how many americans there really are.

But to add to the previous comments you made : Right on.

Tyr : glad to hear a sane respons from soemone who disagrees... remember that debackle a few months back .... Anyhooo .

Disagree. The fat bastard is paying people to kill americans. That constitiutes a threat. Just because the majority are americans abroad means shit. They are still Red, White, and friggin Blue on the inside. Anyone who says that my kin are targets is an enemy of mine. Especailly when hits are put out.


Crap almost forgot, one other thing ::

If the US only was in it for oil then why -

A) Do we make a strong alliance with the #1 Enemy out there, Israel ?
B) Didnt take any from Kuwait or Iraq when there?
C) Embargo the largest oil producing land there, Iran ?

We get more oil elsewhere than the ME. Dont tell me that I was the only one who felt the Venezuelan crisis? Gas went up alot around here.
[/quote]
Is not just the oil. It is a mix of thigs: economical reasons, strategic reason, personal vendetta, desire to appear as making progress on the War on Terror, desire to "finish" what Bush Sr. started, plus a need to distract the emericans from the declinic economic situation, which seems to be getting worse as people get more scared of war. Probably some more I haven't mentioned, but those are the ones that come to mind.
I understand the point of trying to protect americans abroad, butthis war is not going to kill Saddam. It will, however, kill thousands of muslims that have no bearing on international politics, hundreds of young american soldiers, plus create more hatred for americans, which translates to more terrorism.
Basically, I'd feel more at ease thinking that less people hate me for being american, because that means that there will be less crazy kamikazes threatening to blow someone I love.

[BJ250]

What's the stratigic position? It's just...nothing outthere.

Iraq has threatened Israel, our ally numerous times, and Israel isn't big enough to handle it on its own - since they're preoccupied fighting the palistines.

I believe France is out of this so that when this whole mess is over (which isnt a mess - its only going to take a month or so - since he has NO army) they can establish trade really well saying stuff like "well, we didn't attack - you should trade with us!"

Afghanistan is basically done. The rebuilding will take years and is already being done. They're independent on their own, thats why they have their own government. To talk about Loose Ends, Iraq has been a loose end for 12 years.

Yeah, like someone said, most countries aren't concerned with a huge military or WMDs because they're part of NATO (Virtually all of Europe is) which means they're under our protection.

I personally don't see why people are against this. How can you be when a country is violating Res. 1441 producing Nuclear weapons ready to strike at any country near it? He's a mad man, he's insane. You're right, President clinton didn't do jack shit, but that was wrong. That just gave 8 years for Iraq to research and build up.