Mandrake & LILO in mbr - can't boot from hda3

[horus]

Beg your pardon while I slash this quote apart to try to pay more attention to the details... Hopefully I've now had enough sleep to deal. This is a rather long-winded post. Sorry.

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
Hmmm..... I'm obviously not very good at writing questions...
I do not have any problem with booting the OS I want to boot. I want to know why things happen the way they do:
[/quote]

That's always a good idea: so many times we don't look beyond what happens to why it happens.

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
Bootsectors are written in MBR + on hda2 & hda3.
OK, I'll try to explain why:
I always have one OS as my 'main' system, I don't want to mess around with it. This system boots from hda3 using lilo. Today this system is Mandrake 8.0
If I want to try some other distro, I don't want to install it's lilo/boot header on hda3. I could use a floppy, but I prefer to be able to boot from the fixed disk.
hda2 holds Debian 2.2, I installed it a few months ago. Marking hda2 as active resulted in Debian booting (displaying lilo's bootmenu first, as specified in Debian's lilo.conf).
Of course, if I want to keep a second distro, I edit Mandrake8's lilo.conf & boot from hda3.
This has worked fine until now.
[/quote]

This seems to be a rather inefficient arrangement. LILO was never meant to be installed in more than one place on a system - one install of LILO can manage a very large number of boot stanzas. The simplest option here would be to let the LILO on the MBR manage everything.

That doesn't help you understand what happened, though. Bear with me and I'll see if I can noodle it out.

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
When I installed Mandrake 9, I choose to install lilo in MBR (only place left). After doing this I can no longer boot from hda3!
In the normal startup-procedure, BIOS goes first to MBR - but only to look for an active partition. It then passes control to the PBR on this partition.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's true if that's what lilo.conf tells it to do. As I stated earlier, the "boot=", "map=", and "install=" lines in lilo.conf determine this behavior. That's where to start looking to figure out what happened. If the lilo.conf you're looking at doesn't reflect what's happening, one of two things is happening: either /sbin/lilo was not run after the lilo.conf was updated (a real gotcha here!) or you're looking at the wrong lilo.conf file.

By the way, LILO will look, by default, at the lilo.conf in /etc on its drive of origin. In your present setup, where is Mandrake 9.0 installed? The /etc of that filesystem is where the LILO on the MBR is pointed...

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
Some of yoy says that with lilo in the MBR it will be the first thing loaded no matter what partition you have set active, but it shouldn't.
[/quote]

Again, this behavior is predicated by what's in lilo.conf.

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
With other boot-loaders installed in MBR - WinNT's for instance - you boot from the partition marked active & not necessarily from MBR.
[/quote]

And LILO *can* be configured like this, I believe. That's not what happens by default, though...

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
My question is:
Why does not lilo under Mandrake allow me to boot from hda3?
[/quote]

At this point, I would say that either LILO is not up to date (i.e., /sbin/lilo needs to be run) or the lilo.conf that LILO on the MBR points to need to be edited to permit this behavior, and then /sbin/lilo for that install needs to be run again.

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58305 date=1043052525]
Is lLILO doing something, is it a Mandrake issue - or is there a problem with my disk?
[/quote]

As I also stated earlier, some releases of Mandrake are kind of sneaky about what they do with LILO. The best place to look for this is in the lilo.conf files, remembering that any disparity between them and the behavior of LILO is due to /sbin/lilo's needing to be run to update the boot record in question. Does that help clarify it?

This has got to be the most complex setup of LILO I've ever encountered. I'll follow this thread as closely as I can, and if I come up with anything else in my readings on the subject, I'll be sure to bring it here. You've really got me thinking here with this one.

Oh, by the way... how many primary partitions are you maintaining presently? There's a gotcha involving Win/DOS fdisk here: it can only resolve one primary partition whereas Linux fdisk can resolve (I think) three? (and, by the way, I count FOUR boot records in your present install: MBR, hda2, hda3, and wherever Win98 is? Might be the problem?)

I take it, from your descriptions here, that you used Linux Fdisk to prepare all the partitions? Am I right in that? If not, some really wierd stuff might be goin' on here... this is an area I know comparatively little about - I don't use fdisk that much except at installs, and don't install that often. Oh, well, can't know everything - it'd be no fun that way.

Later On,
horus

[x]

Hi again.
I think I'm getting closer to an answer:
You say, horus, that with LILO in MBR it will take over the rest of the boot procedure from BIOS? That means, if you install LILO in MBR it never matters which partition you mark active?
If this is the case, will installing LILO in hda1 make any difference? I'll have to test that - I simply have to know.
Also, if it is as you say, then LILO does more than other DOS/Win-based boot-loaders - with any of these in MBR (only place you can have them) you still boot from the active partition, overriding the bootloader in MBR.
It also means that my fixed disk & motherboard is not weird (not concerning bootsectors at least) You see, I've had a few problems with ports, don't know if it's the mobo that's a bit corrupt.

I know my setup might seem a bit odd, but I test new distro's as often as I can. I don't want to take the risk of not beeing able to boot my ordinary OS - I could fix it, but my kids & wife use this computer too.
Just imagine, wife boots up and can't choose her Windows ... (oh well, it's gone now. I made a small mistake... > ) She doesn't like to use Mandrake, but she has to and she's not complaining much any more. But what if she boots up and finds a fresh installed Debian (without mouse) Solaris (with Gnome instead of KDE) etc
I'd have to sleep on the couch the rest of the month...

Just for your information:
I use fdisk - the best partitioning program I've seen.
I have 4 pri partitions used,
hda1 = vfat for Windows
hda2 = ext2 for experimenting / testing distro's
hda3 = /boot ( several distro's / is on logical volumes)
hda4 = extended.

I tried to make hda2 a Win-partition, but Win98/WinNT didn't see it, it was immediately changed to "hidden".

[pam]

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread but I think I get the drift.
MBR is loaded first, no matter what - that's what the BIOS does. Now, I believe that a Windows mbr will actually load and run the boot sector from the current "active" partition of the four primary partitions. (this is sad, but I once reverse engineered a Windows MBR and this is what it does IIRC).
This means that you need to reinstate your Windows MBR to put things back the way you had them before. fdisk can do this for you (the Windows fdisk, not linux), like this:

fdisk /mbr

Hope that helps.

[horus]

[quote author=x link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58415 date=1043226108]
Hi again.
I think I'm getting closer to an answer:
You say, horus, that with LILO in MBR it will take over the rest of the boot procedure from BIOS? That means, if you install LILO in MBR it never matters which partition you mark active?
[/quote]

Ummm.... yes. What LILO does if it's on the MBR is act as the system's primary boot loader. This means that if you write it to the MBR where Windows is already present, it *moves* the existing boot record to a new location on the disk to make room for itself during installation. It then boots, and, during phase one of startup looks at whichever stanza is requested during boot (or whichever one the system times out to), and loads that boot record during the second phase of startup. Looking at some of the how-tos for WinNT and such, there have in times past been setups where, say, a WinNT bootloader would point to LILO which then managed any Linux boots needed... Win98, alas, does not provide a multiboot manager in its "stock" form, so your best option is to use LILO from the MBR, and set up your stanzas accordingly. But... keep reading, please.

If this is the case, will installing LILO in hda1 make
any difference? I'll have to test that - I simply have to know.

Probably be indistinguishable if hda1 is the first partition of the first physical drive... which it should be. By all means test, though, and report. That way we all learn something.

Also, if it is as you say, then LILO does more than other DOS/Win-based boot-loaders - with any of these in MBR (only place you can have them) you still boot from the active partition, overriding the bootloader in MBR.

I'm not so sure about this stuff... LILO is definitely more versatile than any DOS or WIn bootloader *I've* played with.

It also means that my fixed disk & motherboard is not weird (not concerning bootsectors at least) You see, I've had a few problems with ports, don't know if it's the mobo that's a bit corrupt.

Probably not. Most newer motherboards are very much Linux-friendly (there will always be exceptions, though, and it's good to recognize that in any testing/troubleshooting efforts.)

I know my setup might seem a bit odd, but I test new distro's as often as I can. I don't want to take the risk of not beeing able to boot my ordinary OS - I could fix it, but my kids & wife use this computer too.

Very familiar with this scenario: My home box has just two OSs on it (WInME and RH 7.2 presently) - wife and daughter use BOTH - and are very protective.

Just imagine, wife boots up and can't choose her Windows ... (oh well, it's gone now. I made a small mistake... > ) She doesn't like to use Mandrake, but she has to and she's not complaining much any more. But what if she boots up and finds a fresh installed Debian (without mouse) Solaris (with Gnome instead of KDE) etc
I'd have to sleep on the couch the rest of the month...

Imagine, if you will, a system running a dynamic drive overlay onto which I just installed GRUB on the MBR incorrectly... so that *neither* operating system now boots, no matter what? Can you say "crossed legs & cornbread"? Sure, I knew you could...

Just for your information:
I use fdisk - the best partitioning program I've seen.

Certainly one of the more powerful disk management tools out there. Linux fdisk, that is, right?

I have 4 pri partitions used,

<clang, honk, tweet!>
Here's the problem! Linux fdisk can only do THREE primary partitions. You've bagged over your limit.

hda1 = vfat for Windows
hda2 = ext2 for experimenting / testing distro's
hda3 = /boot ( several distro's / is on logical volumes)
hda4 = extended.

Well... maybe not. hda4 is an extended partition, or a primary partition? Which one is it? If you've ever tried to make hda4 active and had it not work, there's your answer.

I tried to make hda2 a Win-partition, but Win98/WinNT didn't see it, it was immediately changed to "hidden".

To use one of my favorite Blade Runner quotes: "I don't know such stuff." Just guessing here, I would wonder if you had deleted the old partition coding (ext2) and attempted to then create a vfat or ntfs partition here? Was this with an already existing Windows primary partition? This gets hazy for me.... This might be a result of exceeding the primary partitions limit, or some freaky stuff with Win/DOS fdisk, which can see only ONE primary partition. ("There can be only one!&quot Also, did you rewrite the partition talble after making your changes?

A good look at the LILO how-to and possibly the several Multi-boot how-tos and mini-how-tos is in order here.

You may find, after you get past the cryptic syntax, that GRUB is even more versatile than LILO for multiboot situations like yours.

To quote the great defective: "When you have eliminated all the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Me, I think he had a thing for WIlliam of Occam, myself. Something kinky with that razor thingy...

Later on,
horus (who now really needs some sleep)

[Schotty]

[quote author=horus link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58461 date=1043284871]
Here's the problem! Linux fdisk can only do THREE primary partitions. You've bagged over your limit.

Later on,
horus (who now really needs some sleep)
[/quote]

Wrong dude. I use 4 partitions on almost all NIX systems. The only exception is servers which get 5 ( a separate /var)

hda1 = /boot
hda2 = /
hda3 = /home
hda4 = swap

All primary. Doing this for a couple of years now.

[x]

Okay, pam confirmed it: LILO in MBR takes over, DOS/Win bootloaders don't.
This could be a result of lilo now being able to boot from logical volumes, right?

And horus: the extended partition is a primary partition.
The problem with Windows not seeing a second primary partition I don't really care about. I simply created a logical volume instead.
Of course I use fdisk for Linux! Actually, I delete all DOS/Windows partitioning programs I get with any Windows, two years ago I realized that they corrupted the partition table - could be because the second fixed disk wasn't handled by BIOS. Any way, I only need fdisk for Linux.

BUT!
I installed Debian 3.0 a week ago (weird thing, USB-mouse not working, no screen - Debian is now removed) and it had an option to install a new mbr.
I tried it, it's really cool!
When you boot up, press <shift> and you can choose which partition to boot from!

[horus]

[quote author=Schotty link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58476 date=1043301430]
[quote author=horus link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58461 date=1043284871]
Here's the problem! Linux fdisk can only do THREE primary partitions. You've bagged over your limit.

Later on,
horus (who now really needs some sleep)
[/quote]

Wrong dude. I use 4 partitions on almost all NIX systems. The only exception is servers which get 5 ( a separate /var)

hda1 = /boot
hda2 = /
hda3 = /home
hda4 = swap

All primary. Doing this for a couple of years now.
[/quote]

Yeah, I'm busted. (So now I'll ask a few questions... I might learn something that way.:P)

You're right - but, in my defense, that info was taken from the Osborne RHCE Study Guide for RH 6.0., and I did it from memory after a 22-hour workday. When will I ever learn that "Running Linux" is the best #@$! book to look in for such stuff? The way they explain it is this:

hda = first physical IDE drive
/hda1 = first primary partition on first physical drive
/hda2 = second pri. partition on first physical drive
/hda3 = third primary partition on first physical drive
/hda4 = fourth primary partition on first physical drive
/hda5 = first logical partition on first physical drive
(which, if I'm reading it right, could be mounted
under any of the existing primary partitions, right?)

and so on, out to a maximum of /hda64 (?) if I read the LILO manpage correctly... (seems kinda high, but that's what I thought it said. SCSI drives max out at 16, though.)

So, in this example, we could have a tree something like this?

hda--+---/hda1
+---/hda2
+-/hda5
+-/hda6
+-/hda7 (etc.)
+---/hda3
+---/hda4

and all those logical partitions could just as easily be scattered around to other primary partitions, not necessarily all grouped together on /hda2 (it's just an example).

One thing I'm not certain of, but have a pretty good guess about: swap partitions don't necessarily *have* to be primary partitions. I'm supposing this to be true because the number of permitted swap areas (total of swap files and partitions) exceeds the number of permitted primary partitions by a factor of four (i.e., up to sixteen swap areas are permitted, all of which can be partitions on an IDE drive if I read it right).

(I normally let the installation take care of swap for me, but my readings lead me to believe that multiple swap partitions might be better than one big honkin' 128MB one...) Speaking of which, with later distros, the 128 MB limit disappeared, didn't it?

As for Debian, I haven't tried to use Debian since about 1.2 - maybe it's time I gave it a second look. Been thinking of trying Gentoo, and the new SuSE also. O'course, it'll mean a bigger hard drive for my laptop first, though. 10 gigs is just not enough to play around with more than about two OS at a time...

Yeah, I blew it. Thanks for helping me out there. Somedays you get the bear, somedays the bear gets you.

Later On,
horus

[Schotty]

no big deal

Simple mistake. Should see the "expert and professional" advice else where : Whooo! Some bad help! That stuff needs an apology, yours doesnt. You can consider it the ever-so-famous off-by-one-error ;D

[Schotty]

[quote author=horus link=board=1;threadid=6090;start=0#58546 date=1043373973]
One thing I'm not certain of, but have a pretty good guess about: swap partitions don't necessarily *have* to be primary partitions. I'm supposing this to be true because the number of permitted swap areas (total of swap files and partitions) exceeds the number of permitted primary partitions by a factor of four (i.e., up to sixteen swap areas are permitted, all of which can be partitions on an IDE drive if I read it right).

(I normally let the installation take care of swap for me, but my readings lead me to believe that multiple swap partitions might be better than one big honkin' 128MB one...) Speaking of which, with later distros, the 128 MB limit disappeared, didn't it?
[/quote]

Almost forgot ;D

Yeah you are absolutely right. Swap doesnt need to be primary. I just felt like puttign it there for lack of a better spot. I dont share my drive with any other OS's right now. And will never. I like 1 PC 1 OS. But I digress ....

As for the 128MB limit, I **THINK** you are right on that one. Cuz I have a 512MB swap, and it does get eaten now and then. I do recall swapon would barf if more that 128MB was present. I do recall that my Slackware book stated to make the total swap space into at max 128MB chunks, and you were allowed something like 16 (as you said).