Das Kapital...

**Hamond** · 03-16-2002, 12:06 AM

hey stryder...

I found a copy of 'Capital Volume 1' at my local library and I've started reading it (I managed to get past the introductions and commentaries and now I'm about 13 pages into the real thing). Anyhow, this is the same 'Das Kapital' that you were referring to, right? (I'm not going to return it if it's not...I should be able to finish it in 2 weeks or less and, really, there isn't any good reason for me not to read this if I can comprehend what's in it.)

Have you read it? Do you know of any other things that I should read that might help me understand it a little better? (sure, the language and the concepts might be easy enough to grasp (or maybe not...), but it might be a little easier for me to see what Marx is driving at if I had a better idea of what capitalism was like at the time that he wrote this.)

Any assistance would be appreciated...

btw, is there any other Marxist literature or stuff written by Marx that you've particularly liked or found interesting? or perhaps socialist or communist lit?

**creedon** · 03-16-2002, 11:24 AM

hey stryder...

I found a copy of 'Capital Volume 1' at my local library and I've started reading it (I managed to get past the introductions and commentaries and now I'm about 13 pages into the real thing). Anyhow, this is the same 'Das Kapital' that you were referring to, right? (I'm not going to return it if it's not...I should be able to finish it in 2 weeks or less and, really, there isn't any good reason for me not to read this if I can comprehend what's in it.)

Have you read it? Do you know of any other things that I should read that might help me understand it a little better? (sure, the language and the concepts might be easy enough to grasp (or maybe not...), but it might be a little easier for me to see what Marx is driving at if I had a better idea of what capitalism was like at the time that he wrote this.)

Any assistance would be appreciated...

btw, is there any other Marxist literature or stuff written by Marx that you've particularly liked or found interesting? or perhaps socialist or communist lit?

Check out "The Communist Manifesto". I think Marx and Engels collaborated on it. The idea of a socialist (communist) state is an ideal that can't be fulfilled. I was born and brought up near the area where the first true communist society was tried; the Oneida Community in Kenwood, NY. It lasted about 30 years, and was a religious society with strict communist protocols. It failed because human nature won't allow a society of equals to exist.

**stryder144** · 03-16-2002, 12:27 PM

Check out "The Communist Manifesto". *I think Marx and Engels collaborated on it. *The idea of a socialist (communist) state is an ideal that can't be fulfilled. *I was born and brought up near the area where the first true communist society was tried; the Oneida Community in Kenwood, NY. *It lasted about 30 years, and was a religious society with strict communist protocols. *It failed because human nature won't allow a society of equals to exist.

This is true, the utopian concept is an ideal which will never be attained until we cease to exist as humans.

hey stryder...

I found a copy of 'Capital Volume 1' at my local library and I've started reading it (I managed to get past the introductions and commentaries and now I'm about 13 pages into the real thing). Anyhow, this is the same 'Das Kapital' that you were referring to, right? (I'm not going to return it if it's not...I should be able to finish it in 2 weeks or less and, really, there isn't any good reason for me not to read this if I can comprehend what's in it.)

Have you read it? Do you know of any other things that I should read that might help me understand it a little better? (sure, the language and the concepts might be easy enough to grasp (or maybe not...), but it might be a little easier for me to see what Marx is driving at if I had a better idea of what capitalism was like at the time that he wrote this.)

Any assistance would be appreciated...

btw, is there any other Marxist literature or stuff written by Marx that you've particularly liked or found interesting? or perhaps socialist or communist lit?

Hamond: *One thing to remember is that communistic socialism is a reaction to Industrialism (think of kids working in factories for pennies a day) and it's brand of capitalism. *Das Kapital is actually foundational to understand the Communist Manifesto. *The CM will be better understood by reading the entire DK first. *His concepts of economic systems that he laid out in DK provided the ground work for the CM.

A good reference site would be www.marxists.org. *Check it out.

While I am socialistic in leaning, I believe that Communism can never and will never provide the answers to societal woes. *No political system can. *It could be argued that as long as the heart of man is not changed, the plight of man will not change. *Having said that, I applaud your interest in "alternative" political systems. *The knowledge you will gain will (hopefully) be useful to you when you finally form a more concrete vision (concept) of how society can be helped.

Cheers

**creedon** · 03-16-2002, 12:53 PM

[quote]Socialism and communisim are distinctly different. Communisim requires everything to be of benefit of the state, whereas Socialisim benefits the individual. Example: In a Communist society, medical coverage would be universal, because it benefits the State to have healthy workers; in a Socialist state, medical coverage would be universal because it benefits the individual to remain healthy, and thereby benefits the state. It's a subtle distinction, but the motivation in a Socialist state is humanitarian, not political.

**stryder144** · 03-16-2002, 01:04 PM

Socialism and communisim are distinctly different. *Communisim requires everything to be of benefit of the state, whereas Socialisim benefits the individual. *Example: In a Communist society, medical coverage would be universal, because it benefits the State to have healthy workers; in a Socialist state, medical coverage would be universal because it benefits the individual to remain healthy, and thereby benefits the state. *It's a subtle distinction, but the motivation in a Socialist state is humanitarian, not political.

I agree with you, totally. Generally speaking, Socialism is more individual leaning and Communism (far left Socialism) is definitely State leaning (heck, they leaned over so far that they fell on the people and squashed them

). It is wise to study all forms of political thought, so that you can posses a better understanding of your own political system as well as it's pros and cons.

**creedon** · 03-16-2002, 02:56 PM

I agree with you, totally. Generally speaking, Socialism is more individual leaning and Communism (far left Socialism) is definitely State leaning (heck, they leaned over so far that they fell on the people and squashed them

). It is wise to study all forms of political thought, so that you can posses a better understanding of your own political system as well as it's pros and cons.

The greatest danger in studying political systems is not to be objective when considering different theories. If you can't maintatin an objective stance, and analyze theories without bias, you'll see non-existant advantages in a system that really might be restrictive. I think that's what happened in the late 19th century- people were so desparate to get rid of oppressive monarchies, they didn't seethe disadvantages of the systems the replaced the monarchies with. I think Great Britian came out the best by keeping the monarchy as a figurehead, and establishing a representative democracy as the actual government. (Before any of our British friends chastize me, yes, I know it's not that simple; but face it, no American is ever going to understand British politics, and vice-versa.)

**ndogg** · 03-18-2002, 03:36 AM

The greatest danger in studying political systems is not to be objective when considering different theories. *If you can't maintatin an objective stance, and analyze theories without bias, you'll see non-existant advantages in a system that really might be restrictive. *I think that's what happened in the late 19th century- people were so desparate to get rid of oppressive monarchies, they didn't seethe disadvantages of the systems the replaced the monarchies with. *I think Great Britian came out the best by keeping the monarchy as a figurehead, and establishing a representative democracy as the actual government. *(Before any of our British friends chastize me, yes, I know it's not that simple; but face it, no American is ever going to understand British politics, and vice-versa.)

To say that anyone will understand anyone else's politics is folly, I think. I'm not even sure I fully understand my own views on politics.

Anyone, Marx was an idealist, much too optimistic on human nature.

**stryder144** · 03-18-2002, 06:34 AM

To say that anyone will understand anyone else's politics is folly, I think. *I'm not even sure I fully understand my own views on politics.

Anyone, Marx was an idealist, much too optimistic on human nature.

I believe that Marx' idealism was too strongly placed in the ruling class and he underestimated the working class. That is really kinda funny. He believed that all should be equals, loyal to the State, that anyone could rise to the highest positions of power. Yet, he considered the working class to be too stupid to do anything other than work and reproduce (look up the definition of proletariate in the dictionary, very enlightening). How can you be too stupid for anything but bumping and grinding, yet still be smart enough to rule the State (in it's best interest, of course)?

I would go on for several more paragraphes, but my youngest daughter just fell asleep on my lap and her snoring breath is super heating my chest (yikes, her breath must be over 100 degrees F!). So, I must go for now.

Cheers

**ndogg** · 03-18-2002, 04:40 PM

I believe that Marx' idealism was too strongly placed in the ruling class and he underestimated the working class. *That is really kinda funny. *He believed that all should be equals, loyal to the State, that anyone could rise to the highest positions of power. *Yet, he considered the working class to be too stupid to do anything other than work and reproduce (look up the definition of proletariate in the dictionary, very enlightening). *How can you be too stupid for anything but bumping and grinding, yet still be smart enough to rule the State (in it's best interest, of course)?

I would go on for several more paragraphes, but my youngest daughter just fell asleep on my lap and her snoring breath is super heating my chest (yikes, her breath must be over 100 degrees F!). *So, I must go for now.

Cheers

I could be wrong here, so feel free to correct me if I am.

I thought that Marx felt that people would eventually evolve into a state in which peaceful anarchy was possible? I thought that Marxism and Capitalism both had the goal of anarchy, but from extremely different angles?