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**Lovechild** · 12-23-2006, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Larry

What happened to the Love in Lovechild ???

Theres just no pleasing you is there ???

And is everything you write so LLLOOONNNGGG ???

If this place falls why not at least wait till its on its way down before you say "I told you so".

Oh yes, and I do have a weakness for "Smiles" icons..

I really have no idea what you are talking about. I consider myself helpful, not just to those who ask but proactively and consistently acting in the spirit of Free Software and the community.

**Larry** · 12-23-2006, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Lovechild

I really have no idea what you are talking about. I consider myself helpful, not just to those who ask but proactively and consistently acting in the spirit of Free Software and the community.

So you are a hero...

**peter** · 12-23-2006, 03:24 PM

Lovechild, neither the value of your contributions nor the membership is in question.

Somehow, I believe you are misinterpreting my overall message.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

**Schotty** · 12-23-2006, 03:28 PM

Look guys, pipe down. Go grab a beer and a bratwurst and relax.

As to append to what Lovechild stated firstly, none of us have been consulted with jack with regards to the forums. That is something that pushed alot of buttons in the past and continues to do so. Taking mostly UNIX-like OS users (BSD, Linux, Solaris, MacOS) and expecting them to know anything with regards to usefulness on Windows is retarded. Thats like asking my grandma (a good cook) about computers. Not pretty. Thats what he and others have been torqued off about. Not the new people, just the methods that made the people, "new people."

It seems that alot of us here have been chronically left in the dark with regards to our favorite forums, and the trend hasn't died... yet.

**stryder144** · 12-23-2006, 04:55 PM

peter - I don't quite understand why you wanted to merge the two sites. Doesn't seem all that necessary, to me. Having said that, though, this is your site and you can do as you wish with it.

schotty and lovechild are right, we have not been consulted about the direction this site is taking. Just like we weren't consulted about it's merger with our beloved LJr. I, too, had a (brief) membership in lno. About the time that I joined I found that there was a site that promised quite a bit (LJr) and managed to produce. What made it special, to me, was the community. Even when arguments sprang up the community came together and tried to smooth things out. Just like in a real life community. Guys like bullgooselooney, schotty, lovechild, trickster, etc etc made the community what it was. It was fun, it was informative, and it was home. Now, that is sadly gone and I seriously doubt we will ever see the likes of it again (just as cga has stated). I supported the site (via buying a computer through walmart), I contributed when I could, and talked it up as much as I could. Those were great days. And, like most great days, I will remember them fondly with a tear in my eye.

I wish you, peter, great luck and success. I just feel that my time here has probably come to a slow halt and must give in to the inevitable. I will pop in from time to time, of course. If for no other reason than out of loyalty to my fellow LJr alumni.

Cheers

**cybergal** · 12-23-2006, 10:34 PM

Peter, your promise to consult with the membership in future is too little, too late. It is evident by your actions that your management style is to make the decisions and ask for opinions later when they will have little or no chance to see the light of day. No choice, there, and, lest you should forget, members of the Linux community are very big on CHOICE.

I was one of the original members of LJr after the LinuxNewbie debacle and made it my "home" Linux forum. I have seen the quality slide since it became OpenFree.org and have stayed more out of loyalty than anything else. However, this hastily contrived marriage of a Linux forum with a Windows forum defies all belief. Because no consultation was allowed, prenuptial counselling was denied. This marriage had no courtship, will have no happy honeymoon to remember before the ultimate and inevitable messy divorce.

I will miss the friends I have met here and welcoming new members to Linux. However, even there, many or most won't be here for Linux at all.

Over and Out.

**peter** · 12-24-2006, 01:30 AM

It is regrettable that it has turned out this way.

With LJR, I approached the administrator of what appeared to be a dormant forum, asked whether I could take it over, and was told "yes". As the forum seemed inactive, I primarily consulted the person who appeared to be the owner and consulted them on the communication strategy to be used.

The furor that followed that decision truly took me by surprise, and I did accommodate as many requests as possible from the membership to help ease the transition. That has sadly been forgotten.

Even with these efforts, made with our community input, there was the constant lament that the forums were not like LJR, and most specifically, that they needed more life and that made it "not the same". It was a factor that had concerned me for some time and it seemed from the level of discord, that it was threatening the forum.

So how do we prevent this in future?

I will say it again. There will be more complete consultation, but there needs to be an understanding of how it should be done. For example, it has been mentioned that the membership should be consulted:

What are the rights of the administrator?
On what activities should the membership be consulted?
Who should make the decision that the membership should be consulted?
When consulted, should it be everyone or just the senior members?
What is a senior member, a person with a lot of posts, or someone who has been a member for a long time?
Should decisions be made by consensus or a majority vote?
What percentage of eligible voters need to participate for a valid result?
If the vote has numerous choices, should the one with the most votes win, or should the two most popular choices have a subsequent runoff vote?
Should the entire membership be alerted that a vote is in progress? If so, for what types of votes and who should make that decision?
Should there be a discussion thread with a vote in a separate thread that follows later, or should the two be combined?
What should the duration of a voting period?
Should people be allowed to vote for multiple choices?
How can this all be done with acceptable speed?

This may seem crazy, but we now have a dynamic in which it is possible that a single "no" from a member could stagnate any decision to go forward. What hybrid decision making method do you feel could be practicable?

Even with the disapproval voiced here, I have yet to hear in this thread proposed methods of creating an improved forum that you can all agree on. This is not LJR, so how do you feel your involvement with OpenFree could be more rewarding? Suggestions, without a commitment to action are useless. Schotty has offered help with repos and podcasts, Lovechild has offered help with doing DVDs, what else can be done?

My other question is, were the OpenFree forums really as bad as have been mentioned in other threads? It was a primary factor in my wanting to revitalize them.

I am challenging you in this way, not because I want to be draconian, but because criticism can only be constructive if both the problem and the means to fix it are defined. Only then can the solution be implemented.

**Lovechild** · 12-24-2006, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by peter

It is regrettable that it has turned out this way.

With LJR, I approached the administrator of what appeared to be a dormant forum, asked whether I could take it over, and was told "yes". As the forum seemed inactive, I primarily consulted the person who appeared to be the owner and consulted them on the communication strategy to be used.

In no way your fault that Cloverm agreed to this merger without asking the community - one might have wished that you at least introduced yourself and presented the plans for the merger before it was announced but that's bridge under the water and all that.

The furor that followed that decision truly took me by surprise, and I did accommodate as many requests as possible from the membership to help ease the transition. That has sadly been forgotten.

Not forgotten, you just never learn. We say we would like to be informed about changes.. and what happened?

Even with these efforts, made with our community input, there was the constant lament that the forums were not like LJR, and most specifically, that they needed more life and that made it "not the same". It was a factor that had concerned me for some time and it seemed from the level of discord, that it was threatening the forum.

Learn from the past, I specifically told you what was the difference between OpenFree and LinuxJunior, several times infact. With direct suggestions for improvements. I don't recall one of them being merge us with a Windows forum.

So how do we prevent this in future?

Not constantly getting into situations that require asking for forgiveness might help?

I will say it again. There will be more complete consultation, but there needs to be an understanding of how it should be done. For example, it has been mentioned that the membership should be consulted:

I'll be honest here.. I won't hold my breath for that consultation thing but I will give you this final benefit of the doubt. All things forgot so long as you take to heart what has been said in this thread.

What are the rights of the administrator?
On what activities should the membership be consulted?
Who should make the decision that the membership should be consulted?
When consulted, should it be everyone or just the senior members?
What is a senior member, a person with a lot of posts, or someone who has been a member for a long time?
Should decisions be made by consensus or a majority vote?
What percentage of eligible voters need to participate for a valid result?
If the vote has numerous choices, should the one with the most votes win, or should the two most popular choices have a subsequent runoff vote?
Should the entire membership be alerted that a vote is in progress? If so, for what types of votes and who should make that decision?
Should there be a discussion thread with a vote in a separate thread that follows later, or should the two be combined?
What should the duration of a voting period?
Should people be allowed to vote for multiple choices?
How can this all be done with acceptable speed?

1) I would say one person should not have special rights or deciding veto. Not you and not me.
2) Things that generally affect us. If you change the theme please announce it a few days in advance and request comments. If a chance to merge opens give us 1-2 weeks to go visit the other site to see if the general style would jive with ours then a concensus should follow quite nicely and make sure the opposing side gets the same input we would not want anyone there being ticked off.
3) The guidelines should be minor stuff is okay to do and RFC. New stuff is okay since there's not regression, as long as you RFC it so we know it's there and can test it out. Restructuring (this includes merging) needs to be preannounced and RFCed, I have a feeling there will either be overwhelming against or for, if we are split down the middle it's probably best to expand upon the issue or avoid it depending of the severity of comments and change.
4) I would be in favor of just opening a thread so everyone who's interested can have a say. I'm sure we can come to an agreement.
5) I would say someone who makes a contribution to the forum of a period of time, for arguments sake, membership of 6 months or longer and a post count higher than 250 or a contributed PET/article/review/etc. would be a good measuring stick?
6) 2/3 for a given proposal would be nice but I think we can work this out by debate and generaly consensus, if the mood is heated it's clear that it might need to be put on ice for revision and rethought.
7) .. forced votes

.. I would favor debate over a pure vote, it allows for the expression of nuances of opinion and if we ever get to a point where a vote is needed, I think we should rethink the proposal if there's not a strong feeling either way that could be a flaw in the way the proposal was worded.

[...] I'll just jump past all the technical voting questions

last one) The forum makes announcements, we could do a 2 week RFC thread, anyone who doesn't come here for 2 weeks straight is not likely to be a member with strong investment in the community. After the 2 week if there's a general tendency that guides you in your decision.. the speak now or forever hold your peace approach?

This may seem crazy, but we now have a dynamic in which it is possible that a single "no" from a member could stagnate any decision to go forward. What hybrid decision making method do you feel could be practicable?

As proposed above.. not optimal but it's not filled with red tape and commitees to slow us down and a single user cannot halt the process.

Even with the disapproval voiced here, I have yet to hear in this thread proposed methods of creating an improved forum that you can all agree on. This is not LJR, so how do you feel your involvement with OpenFree could be more rewarding? Suggestions, without a commitment to action are useless. Schotty has offered help with repos and podcasts, Lovechild has offered help with doing DVDs, what else can be done?

Lovechild also offered lots of other help, he specifically offered to help with Podcasts, Interviews, Articles, Reviews, Running the Fedora section and such.. but Peter never got back to him so Lovechild figured Peter decided to piss on his advice as usual.

My other question is, were the OpenFree forums really as bad as have been mentioned in other threads? It was a primary factor in my wanting to revitalize them.

Why do you feel like we need new life? You have no given one reason why you want to constantly change this place. I already warned you on the penis extension approach to member count. A community like this is built around content, if we have superior content we will get members without the rather nasty process of mergering communites.

Not only is merging two databases prone to technical problems but you are bound to have a period of time where a lot of new people have to meet each other and find common ground. I see that as being problematic and prone to failure.

I am challenging you in this way, not because I want to be draconian, but because criticism can only be constructive if both the problem and the means to fix it are defined. Only then can the solution be implemented.

I think I provided that..

**peter** · 12-24-2006, 04:17 AM

Food for thought.

A clear understanding of what matters, and a framework for interaction, reduces the risk of errors. They will not be eliminated because judgment will still need to be used prior to notifications.

My not getting back to members on feedback is primarily due to a lack of mutual reminders, not disdain. I have a hectic job, and I sometimes forget. I have also been focusing my attention on this thread.

The administrator should be more than just a facilitator. Give me a couple days and I'll open a new discussion thread on this train of thought.

This thread was generally civil, however we should ease off on the penis talk. We also got very close to having personal attacks. Moderation on the forums is lightly used, firm and fair. I don't want the frequency with which it is applied to change.